Yeah. So, outside of drag, I’m Ellis. They and he pronouns. In drag, Jack Screw, he/him, sometimes she. We’ll see. Yeah, he’s more fluid for sure.
And how old are you?
I am 23 years old.
Amazing. And where are you from?
I am from Long Island, New York.
How long have you been in New York City for?
A little over a year… not very long, but I grew up really close to New York, so yeah. I’ve known it for a good while.
So first I have some questions about your drag persona. Can you give me a little bit of a description of Jack ? Like, what’s the personality like? How did he come to be? Yeah, how did you conceptualize that character?
Absolutely. I really started off the creation of this character with thinking about what emotion I wanted the audience to feel. What is his purpose?
I feel like drag is such an emotive and conversational art form that I thought, like, what type of energy do I want to bring, and how do I want people to feel?
Um, and I knew I wanted to bring a sense of wonder and adventure and whimsy, but also have a more comical side, have a more sexy side, um. And I wanted it to be masculine - that was my goal: to have like interesting, adventurous, whimsical, sexual masculinity, which one doesn’t really see out in the world from a man.
So it’s like, yeah, a type of like safe masculinity that is masculine, but not that of a man.
And in relation to that, if it’s comfortable, can you describe your gender and sexual identity?
So out of drag, I’m definitely one of those people that will have to give you a full sentence to describe. Gender and sexuality are quite linked, so my whole sentence would be: trans masculine, gender queer, butch lesbian.
Love it.
Not necessarily in that order. I think the most salient parts to me are being butch because that encompasses a gender queerness, my transness, my lesbianism, but just for the fine tuned, ‘what exactly am I doing with this body of mine?’, that’s the whole explanation.
And in drag, I do conceive of the character being a cis man, but he is so inextricably linked to my body inherently because I am his vessel. So he becomes trans by nature of inhabiting my body. And I love to directly call out the dissonance and relationship between my out of drag self and my persona because I do see them as very distinct, but who really cannot exist without who I am.
So in that way, this bisexual cisgender pirate of magic has to filter through me and my butch body and therefore has that as part of him as well.
So you’re kind of like just Tim Curry.
Well, one could say. Yeah, that’s so interesting. I definitely did draw a lot of inspiration from that type of man, who we have come to love within modern queer community. The glam rock kings. The transsexuals of old.
Yeah. It’s so interesting to me that you think of as like a straight cis man in some ways.
Yes. And I think I have a whole arc for his life, genuinely. And he, at different points, identifies in different ways.
And I kind of use this narrative framework of his life to think about my performances and my creative process is filtered both through what’s going on in my life and what I feel really strongly about and what I’m processing emotionally. And then I can superimpose that with the narrative of someone else who I can simplify or maneuver into situations that I can then artistically represent and symbolize other things. And I’ve toyed around with a lot of trajectories for that teach him different things that I can then impart onto the audience in some way…
Because that’s really what I do all this for. At the end of the day, I love the artistry of it. And it’s also very fundamentally about me unpacking things that I’m thinking and feeling and thinking about how I want to bring people into that.
At first really viewed him as this experiment because I started doing drag when I began to really lean into the transgender part of my identity. Before that, it was very “I’m non-binary, I don’t really know if I want to… like I use they/them pronouns.” I didn’t know if I wanted to feel like I was transitioning, capital T.
And was sort of an experimentation in masculinity and just really studying movement and energy and presentation, just for the heck of it, to try it on and see how it felt.
And I did sort of have the ulterior motive to see how it felt on my own body.
So in that way, he was an experiment, and I think he’s a separate entity, another soul that inhabits this vessel. And I think it was really fun to create him and then do drag and then think, you know, I kind of like this. Yeah, I kind of like walking like that. I kind of like the way the mustache looks, and then actualizing that later. In that way, we’re more connected. Yeah, started, but he’s a friendly entity. Hmm, a friendly soul in this body.
Yeah. So do you feel like has changed you, or like you with the… you know, oh, like who was in the driver’s seat?
Yeah, no, I think about that a lot.
It’s kind of a weird question to ask, but you know what I mean...
Oh, absolutely. I think I created Jack. Jack would not exist without me as Ellis, but I definitely gave over control to that experiment.
Yeah, in a way that gave him sway and power, and it is really fun.
I haven’t done this in a while, to be honest, because it feels, this is like a whole other thought. I really enjoyed it when I started doing drag. It was very much like, you would jump into your persona, and there are a lot of people who wouldn’t even know my name other than Jack, and you had so much more freedom to explore that.
Whereas now, there are definitely venues I could go to and I’m unknown completely, and I could be fully, but places where I am comfortable, I’m known as myself. So it’s harder to fully become something different because there’s always some element of being known as yourself. So I miss that, and in that way, I feel like I’m always sort of me doing a character. Yeah, but I’d like for it to not always be that way.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense.
Oh, yeah, there’s space. Yeah, it’s just the comfort level, yeah.
Yeah. Do you remember… or what do you… what do you call your first time in drag?
And can you describe what that was like, what that looked like, and whether you were still then or whether that was someone else?
I remember so clearly, my birth performance was at a party that was thrown by a friend of mine who was in the drag collective that I was a part of, and it was everyone in the drag collective.
We were all at someone’s college house, and we put up these decorations, and it was like before or after a big show.
And I think I was just like not ready, or I wasn’t… I didn’t perform.
It was too big. But they had this party, and a handful of us did performances. I did one, and it was “Too Good-Looking Boy” by Suki Waterhouse, and it was so fucking fun. I was shitting my pants until I started, and then I was like stripping and crawling. It was so fun to do that and feel like, yeah, of course I can do this. Like, this isn’t embarrassing.
Yeah, this is so liberating and fun. And that was my birth.
What was the costuming and makeup like?
It was very minimal. Yeah, I didn’t even feel… that’s why it feels distinct. It wasn’t even a full performance because I had a basic beat, you know, my basic look with the contour and the facial hair and eyeliner, but the rest of the whole thing was barely a costume. I think I was pretty shirtless, taped. I don’t even know what pants I was wearing.
I know I wasn’t wearing shoes; I was inside.
And what was the first, then, um, like performance… outside of like… to people that you didn’t know, you know what I mean?
Yeah, to something that like wasn’t an event that I felt like I was… like the in-crowd with, mm-hmm, was probably at Hens. That felt very real because there were more people I didn’t know there. Feels significant.
Yeah. And I’d love to do more of that because that’s also so liberating in its own way.
Like, who the fuck are you? It doesn’t matter. And my crowd work is so fun. Yeah, with people, you know and it’s also so fun. You don’t know people. So I would say this year in New York…
Yes. Yes. Do you have a go-to performance song, or if you could pick one that was like most representative of the kind of performance that you wanted to do, like what would that be?
Recently, I had the honor of performing at Stonewall, at the Stonewall Inn. And I feel like that performance was a real checkmark in my goal to have a quintessential number that really encompassed all of the facets of what I want him to be in one. My mix.
You know, talking Tim Curry. It was “Make You A Man”, “Sweet Transvestite”, and “New York, New York” mixed together. And I think that’s a perfect example of how I sought to draw upon really established and understandable aesthetics of queer manhood, while also having it so deeply linked to my out-of-drag body… through themes of transitioning and becoming a man and being a “transvestite”, quote-unquote, but I very literally also incorporated doing HRT. And giving myself a testosterone shot during the performance as a way to very clearly show I am doing something that is changing my body all the time now in this performance. And that’s part of the narrative of the performance, and also part of a process of my life and literal health. So in that way, I love how it had themes of joy and becoming and sexuality and masculinity, while also doing something quite real and deep.
And I really enjoyed bridging the depth and the joy. And an extra added part of it that is also very important to me was acknowledging the space I was in at Stonewall with incorporating “New York, New York”. It had a kind of comically jarring cut from where the original lyrics are: “I’m a sweet transvestite from transsexual… Transylvania!”, just cut right to New York.
And to me that it’s, I love being on the nose, and you’re allowed to be on the nose when doing drag. And I enjoyed celebrating being a New Yorker and the privilege that has allowed me, I think that’s so linked to my journey of transness as well. Being afforded healthcare, being afforded proximity to queer communities that bolster me and understand me.
That is also so linked to both my drag and my life. So I was happy to highlight that as well.
Oh, say more. Because I agree, but I don’t know why.
I don’t know why, but the energy just made a lot of sense. It felt like you were writing your name underneath the mix.
I love that.
But it did, it felt like a signature at the end. It was punctuated a little bit.
That was exactly what I was going for.
No, it was. I was like, oh, this is you. This is the end of your performance.
This isn’t just a random mix. We’re not doing a Rocky Horror Tribute thing.
Yes. I was worried that it would stray towards that with my big curly wig and doing the literal songs from Rocky.
No, I think it was a great, that was a perfect finisher for that number. I loved it.
It made sense for what you were witnessing. Oh, it was so good.
Thanks.
I wish I didn’t have to look through the camera so much for that performance. I have to see a video from a different perspective. I was like on the floor, screaming.
And got some great shots. And I’m so grateful. Yeah, I know there’s some good video, which I cannot watch.
My performances live in a sphere. And I do want to look on it again, but with a very like, I know I’m going to be critical. So I’m going to sit down and think about it.
Like a performance review.
Yes, genuinely, because I was very, this is not so important, but it’s interesting. I feel like drag kind of make this an interesting point. Open stages, specifically working in bar spaces, the lighting’s usually awful.
And you’re just kind of in the same realm as the audience by nature of a lack of a spotlight or stage. And I became really quite comfortable with that connection to the audience. But at Stonewall, because they actually have a nice stage and a good, very bright spotlight, I couldn’t see anything.
And I definitely felt a shift in the beginning. Being on stage, I was like, wow, I’m like having a little trouble, even just feeling connected to my own body, because I couldn’t see the people around me. But then I got into the crowd more.
Yeah, and it was able to like, see people’s faces and make eye contact. And that helped align me in my body. But it’s so interesting how the modality of drag allows for this really unique lack of boundary with the audience.
And you have to know how you react to that. And I learned that I rely on that energy exchange. For my own embodiment.
I feel like that’s also partly the reason why there’s such a variety in drag performances. Because you can kind of do whatever you want to do and have the relationship with the audience you want to have. And it’s just it can be so different for each performer.
You know what I mean? But it feels you’re right, like that the audience connection feels so essential to drag and really like what other kind of performing art like really is at that level of relationship with the audience.
I can’t think of anything that’s more accessible and boundaryless.
Yeah, genuinely. Yeah.
We can get all into the intriguing sphere of monetary exchange versus energy exchange and origins of how money gets tied into it. Because there are definitely people who strive to make money off of open stage performances.
But in the spaces where I’m in, it’s largely symbolic. You’ll rarely make enough tip money for an Uber home. But it’s important.
Yet. Still.
Yeah.
Don’t have many more thoughts on that. But I think about it every time.
Yeah, no, truly. I feel like that’s the part of drag performance that I like the most. Getting up in people’s faces in unexpected ways.
Yeah, consensual ways. Consensual ways.
Unexpected but consensual. No, absolutely. Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I know I’ve touched upon this in the interview already. But masculine energy, specifically, interacting with people in a way that communicates like masculine sexuality.
That is so nuanced and honestly scary to me in my outside of drag life.
It’s something that I am not wholly comfortable with projecting masculine sexuality in a very direct way. Because men are so scary about it and so awful about it and non-consensual about it very frequently. So to create a character who can deeply interact with the audience in a playful, whimsical but still overtly flirtatious way is powerful.
And I want to be good at it for myself and also for other people to enjoy. Not that I feel like I’m, you know, deeply pleasing the audience with my performance, but I do think there is something really satisfying about being able to witness overt sexuality and feel safe.
Yeah. I like whimsical masculine energy. That sounds so great.
Right?
Who’s doing it? Just the drag kings. Whimsical masculine energy.
There’s so much sexiness in the whimsy. Put that quote in large letters.
Yeah, I will. I will. I will.
And what is one thing that you really like about drag and one thing that really frustrates you about drag?
Easy. I feel like I’m gonna start with the frustration because it’s easier, and I don’t end on complaining.
Okay.
But what gets me is the fact that you have to do every single part, and you could… you know, take choreo inspiration, you could… yeah, just use a single song. But to do what I consider to be like a full-on drag performance with the mix, you need to learn how to mix it, you have to master it and send it to the right person in the right format.
You have to choreograph it and you need to do your makeup and you need your costume, and it’s just like - it can feel insurmountable if there’s one part you’re not super comfortable on. And I felt that for a little while where I’m like, I don’t know how to move. I don’t know how to dance. How am I supposed to do a whole thing?
Mm-hmm, so that’s frustrating, but that’s also one of the best parts about it. Yeah, there’s so much flexibility - you can just do it from scratch.
And I love that there’s no way to do it incorrectly. That’s the most liberating thing for me. Yeah, I spent a lot of my youth doing competitive orchestra, and I was a competitive violinist. Bad times.
Yeah, and it’s like that is so restrictive. It’s all about perfection and perfect timing and posture and positioning. You have to breathe at the right time. Drag is the complete opposite of that.
And some of my favorite drag is quote-unquote imperfect, where people just let it go, just freestyle, interact with the crowd, you can never predict how that goes.
Well, do you have any final things that you would like to—yeah, leave behind or share with me to finish up?
Absolutely. I am thinking a lot about the early studying I did of drag.
I was so fortunate to have learned from Lahore. I just love, oh, I do love her, and she, in and out of drag, is so brilliant, and you know, instilled in all of the children that drag is super political. And it cuts to the intersection of all your identities.
And I have loved exploring how I can amplify that. My drag mother produces like an all Southeast Asian annual performance that I help out at, and I love to see that. And I think, what can I do that uplifts my culture? I think is Jewish too, and I want to get into figuring that out more.
Yeah, I like to do drag that I feel drawn to do for political reason. I wanted to do that performance where I did T for a really long time. I was like, yeah, now is the time. And it felt very much like, oh yes, I’ve been thinking about this, and this is a part of my identity that I want to showcase. And how can I achieve a message through something fun? And like, I wanted to communicate the power of community and hearing other people’s shared experiences on social media and using that as power to self-actualize.
I wanted to communicate how empowering HRT is and how easy it is.
And doing that through performance felt very ripe. And that’s something I was really proud of, because that is always what I’m trying to communicate, some form of liberation or feeling of freeness, even if it’s just, look at me doing masculinity in a way.
Yeah, that is safe and inviting and different for us all to experience. That’s what drag is supposed to be as well, you know what I mean? That’s the whole thing. And I think some people take it to heart more than others. And I think like, the idea of escapism can be powerful, and I love drag that’s super escapist, super just like…
Like, I remember going to see a drag performance after the inauguration, yeah, and this was at Stonewall, and I don’t remember which queen it was.
Oh, one of the usual, it’s like doing her 70s disco windmill pose, death-droppy shit, and then she like stopped halfway through and she was like, “Hey guys,” I don’t even know what she said, but it was just essentially like, oh, I know it’s a crazy weird night, right? And everyone was like, yeah. And then, oh my god, I forget what song she did. It was so good. I think it was like one of those 80s power ballads… one of those like, it wasn’t “I Will Survive,” but it was something like that. Maybe it was “I Will Survive.”
And it was.. because it was so, you know, she continued her spiel of the classic drag queen, whatever.. park and bark, lip-sync with your mouth, all fucking weird.
But she acknowledged, like, “We’re in this tough moment, and I’m gonna sing us a power ballad.” So powerful to just acknowledge, “We’re in this tough time, and I’m gonna do my drag thing and just sit with the emotions and we’re gonna escape to the disco times.” So you can do it like that, yeah. And you don’t have to hit someone over the head with like, “I’m literally doing HRT to prove that it’s accessible and beautiful.”
You can just go up there and say, you know, “We’re having a shit time.”
Yeah, I look great. Sing it with me now.
Like, I love that.
Oh, I wish I could see what that looked like. It sounds so right. Yeah.
Yeah, on the floor, just gazing up. Tears, tears. It was so good. Yeah. Power drag. The power of drag, and the power of someone being like, you know, “I know this is a little silly, goofy to do right now, but yeah, fuck it.”
But it’s also like that quote about the AIDS one...
Yeah.
Um, you know, we did all of this work during the day, and then we danced in the night.
I can’t, I don’t know that. Yeah, where it’s like, it’s necessary.
Yeah, and I think a lot of people think, like, what’s the point of doing drag if you’re like not live singing or you’re not fully dancing? Like, what’s, what’s the point? And it is really just to exist, and to have fun, and feel a type of way, and make other people feel tired.
Yeah, where it’s like, oh, it’s just actually like the core of what performance should be. Okay, maybe you don’t have this like technical skill to showcase. Most people don’t. But it’s like, no, we’re kind of doing what humanity is all about.
Yeah, just like being… being and becoming, and taking people in it with you.
Community. I’m just gonna say words at this point: creation, community.
Probably the one at Hens. The “Wonder” by Shawn Mendes, one. Yeah, I’m not gonna lie. That one… I was not nervous at all, even backstage and stuff. Everyone was like, “I shit my pants.” I’m like, no, I am meant to be doing this tonight.
And that was really neat.
Yeah, you captured… captured an important moment.
I’m so glad I got pictures of that then.
Yes, and I never get good pictures because I don’t plan.
And so it is very special to have that.
I really love the one of you with the dark, like, the background is kind of not there. I also love the one of you like shooting everywhere. I don’t know like what the sequins. Just incredible. But also the one where you’re like that, you know what I mean?
Oh my. I look, I look terrifying. I love it. I look like I’m screaming, and I like was in my little heart.
Well, it’s not even in your heart. It’s like carried through to the camera, and cameras are unreliable things.
It’s true. They’re like, true. That truth was captured.
I think, yeah, no, yeah, no, I love it.
And that was very unchoreographed, which was terrifying. And I think, like, I just did a lot of, like, ah.. how do you put it? To Annika, stumbling around and making statements. Stumble, stumble, stumble, stumble, reach.
Yeah, throw yourself to the ground, get up. Yeah, reach, stumble, stumble, stumble, stumble. And it’s funny how I’m saying it. That wasn’t like my own. But it was… it was good. It was good. Also, Rocky was so fun. That to me is like in between drag and something else.
Yeah, but that was fun.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah. That was just… it was so fun because I think something that is missed in drag shows that are like open-stage drag shows that I’m a part of - you miss the like cast of it all. Yeah, and I admire the communities that produce together and then perform together constantly. Yeah, I adore that. And there’s a great community. There are so many communities in New York, but the drag king community in Boston: they are incredible.
They are tight.
And there’s such a, like, duty that they feel to like stick together and be a family.
There’s this one King, Jaden Jameson King. He does this like a workshop twice a year or something where he turns out like 20 Kings, and they have a great show. And like, out of the 20 per class, like a couple turn out to be really incredible, dedicated drag Kings.
That’s sick. I don’t even know why I started rambling about that.
Oh, yeah, just like being a part of a family. Yeah, that’s something that I feel is being a little… okay. Here’s my hot take.
Mm-hmm.
I feel like the idea of drag families is being really lost. And that’s so sad, but also good, because drag families were sort of born out of necessity and lack of resources. But I think it would be really beautiful to get back
to the community sharing aspect. Oh, yeah, it could still be… yeah, sharing clothing, sharing practice spaces, like showing up as a group for people’s performances.
Even if, like, you know, we’re not walking in balls.
Here’s my… okay, here’s my hot, hot take.
Mm-hmm.
It’s being lost on like really young white queers who started as like a hobby in college. I say as a young white queer person who started doing drag in college, it’s sort of like, oh, let me do this fun, sexy thing… learn your history.
Mm-hmm.
Be gay, creepy, scavenge, thieve, craft. Don’t just go and buy your whole outfit.
I don’t know. Just saying.
Just saying, let’s remember.
Yeah.
Yeah, I say as someone who is not deeply entrenched in the community, but like, I want to host a workshop.
Yeah, so fun. Yeah, clothing open closet. Clear out my fucking closet over there and have an open drag closet with a ton of funky shit.
I love that. Yeah, imagine… people will be like, oh, I wore those pants. Yeah, my performance is… I love what you did with them. Someone embroiders them.
I would love family. I would love a family that like lives at Hens. Yeah, I feel like we kind of have it already. Yeah, but it’s not connected enough. And we need a… yeah, they’re like.. they’re like tentative links between people.
Yes, if Rocky round two happens.
I think the only final final thing that I’d love to speak on directly would be what I referenced earlier, how I take what I’m grappling with personally and filtering it through the medium of drag. It’s frequently deeply personal and also frequently deeply political and most often both at the same time. And I love the drag community for its intentional politicism and how so frequently some of my favorite performances have been part of fundraising events or general activism and consciousness raising events.
Yeah.
And I think it allows us to push through the fatigue of processing these things when we pair it with being in a safe communal space, pairing it with artistic representation and symbolism and joyfulness. And I thought a lot about the cuts to gender-affirming care for trans youth happening in New York City right now.
Yeah.
And it felt really important for me to acknowledge my place in New York as a trans person doing, you know, doing my HRT publicly. That is actually quite radical. Not saying that to pat myself on the back, but I love having a platform to process my feelings around political happenings through numbers and just in a large way drag in its essence fights against the body fascism, the aesthetics, the culture of fascism.
Yeah, totally.
The resurgence of traditional aesthetics and how it reifies and affects policy surrounding queerness. It’s all very connected.
Yeah.
And drag is such a tool in that way. And any drag pushes up against the ever encroaching attempt fascism is having on holding us back from expression in any way.
The rise of the trad wife.
Yes. I was just listening to a really great video essay on trad aesthetics and it’s crazy.
Drag needs to come for the trad aesthetics so we can make some change.
Right?
Sorry if the teabag is like super, it’s a super, what do you call it? Overbrewed.
Oh, this is so good.
Right? Lady Grey is better than Earl Grey. She’s not getting enough credit.
Oh yeah, it’s the best parts of Earl Grey.
Mm hmm. Cool.
Those are my thoughts.
Fab.
Yes, that feels comprehensive. Amazing.